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VP-ASP New User

199 Posts

Posted - April 02 2005 :  11:13:10  Show Profile  Visit ProductivePC's Homepage  Reply with Quote

Just a quick update on the coop.

It has been two months
We are still running strong for our keyword phrases.
We have attained #1 ranking in MSN for our main keyword phrase.
It turned out that we had something in our robots.txt file that was blocking the msnbot from crawling our website.
MSN Search

Our Backlinks in MSN now reach 8,000+

We are between #7 - #13 for the same keyword phrase in Google.
Same thing for Yahoo and all the rest that Utilize either Google, or Yahoo as their backbone.

All of our keyword phrases have moved up with the amount of backlinks provided.

We are seeing an absorbant amount of traffic coming from other websites (although the majority of the targeted traffic is coming from all of the search engines.)

We break record sales almost every day. I will let you know when it finally calms down.

This is definitely a great tool that gives you an advantage over your competition. You can Join The Coop Here

Have a great day everyone.

Gift Baskets - Looking for the famous Coop? Join Here

Edited by - ProductivePC on April 02 2005 11:23:23

Starting Member

14 Posts

Posted - April 03 2005 :  00:01:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It is so obvious that you are getting some serious kickbacks for this. No one puts this much time and energy into "helping" others except hospice workers.

Advice from me to anyone reading his post. DON'T PARTICIPATE.

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VP-ASP New User

199 Posts

Posted - April 03 2005 :  10:00:30  Show Profile  Visit ProductivePC's Homepage  Reply with Quote

Fecal Storm,

You should probably read the rules before you knock people. As someone pointed out before, there is one benefit to this. If anyone signs up through our affiliate id, we do receive a 10% bonus in weight. This allows ours link to be placed more often throughout the coop bringing us more traffic from other websites and more backlinks within the search engines. That in turn has raised our search engine ranking. However, the current CAP for the weight to place your link throughout the coop is 54,000 for a website that has a PR5 such as ours. We are at 54,000 so therefore us telling you about this does us absolutely no good currently. We receive nothing else. (They are talking about removing the caps but they have been talking about that for 5 months)

However; let's look at a different matter. People like you kill me. You have nothing good to say about anything. You don't try something before you knock it. You are very pessimistic. You don't believe anything even when the proof is right there in front of your face. We appreciate your opinion, but why not let everyone else make that decision based upon facts and not your opinion. Thus far, there have been quite a few people that have signed up for this and are very successful at it. If you don't want to join then don't and if you do want to join and give it a try but do not want to be nice enough to give us the 10% weight bonus for us telling you about this then take the ?s=2197 off the end of the URL. Now we receive absolutely nothing yet, I am still here telling you about it.

When did the vpasp forums get filled with such negative members like yourself? I have been helping people in here for years with VPASP and a lot other things as well as tons of other forums.....

There used to be really nice people here. Where did they go?

Gift Baskets - Looking for the famous Coop? Join Here
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VP-ASP Super User

395 Posts

Posted - April 03 2005 :  10:20:52  Show Profile  Visit apswater's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I got much better results then you did without having to advertise for others.

I see you got 600 or so pages on google and 300 on MSN. Since most of your title pages are similar it really limits you. Now all you got to do it make all the titles completely different and with more key words and you will do much better.

for instance here is me http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=site%3A66.121.213.146&FORM=QBNO

and here is you http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?FORM=MSNH&srch_type=0&q=site%3Aworldfamousgiftbaskets.net

Look at the page titles carefully. Yours are all too similar and I dont think you are getting the traffic you claim. You dont mind if we slip a counter into your site so we can measure do you?

False claims can get you in trouble ya know. Time to put up! Lets see the stats. I showed mine. But then again I already told you before about the major drawbacks to what you are doing.

It is still simple, get titles and descriptons thats what gets you high in the search engines. Not the trick you are claiming.

Edited by - apswater on April 03 2005 10:24:42
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VP-ASP New User

199 Posts

Posted - April 03 2005 :  14:13:17  Show Profile  Visit ProductivePC's Homepage  Reply with Quote

Aps Water,

You are mostly correct. Yes, you still have to optimize your titles, descriptions and copy of each webpage.
For non-competitive keyword phrases, this is all you need. Absoultely! However, for competitive keyword phrases, you also need links pointing to your website. Most people know this as a link exchange or a one way link on someone else's webpage pointing towards your website or specific webpage. This tells the search engines that your website is important enough for this webmaster to put a link to your website on theirs. The anchor text that is put within this is also very important because this tells the search engines what your website is about.

We are in the middle of reprogramming the VPASP shopping to allow us to dynamically change every page name, title, description and copy. You are correct, most of the titles are the same. It is not worth the effort to optimize each and every page until the new website is up and running. We appreciate your opinion even it if is a little off subject.

Currently we are talking about 1 keyword phrase Gift Baskets.

Traffic you ask for, not a problem. There are plenty of services out there that report to you how many people are searching per day for certain keyword phrases, such as word tracker. We also have two stat programs that we use: Urchin and Statcounter.
Statcounter by the way, off the subject works great for tracking people through the dynamic pages of the VPASP shopping cart.

You can utilize the following website to find quick word tracker results:

Here are the results from word tracker.
(We are only interested in the very first one; gift baskets)

gift baskets------------5,756.0 /day
holiday gift baskets------814.0 /day
gourmet gift baskets------745.0 /day
christmas gift baskets----725.0 /day
wine gift baskets---------635.0 /day
unique gift baskets-------618.0 /day
food gift baskets---------499.0 /day
corporate gift baskets----487.0 /day
birthday gift baskets-----465.0 /day
custom gift baskets-------414.0 /day
baby gift baskets---------374.0 /day
wholesale gift baskets----364.0 /day
wedding gift baskets------362.0 /day
chocolate gift baskets----335.0 /day
coffee gift baskets-------315.0 /day

As we all know, the first 3 websites get most of that traffic.
Go to MSN and search for Gift Baskets.

Any SEO tools out there that actually help are priceless. I am unsure why you would disregard one that has been proven to help. To each his own though. You don't have to use it, however I would ask that you let the other people make their own decision based upon the facts.

We do appreciate your opinions and you do make some very valid points, even if they are a little off subject. I personally appreciate your tact when replying. Thank You.

I do have a challenge for you however; should you be up to it. Try out the SEO tool for one month and then tell us your facts on the matter.
Write down the following:
- Your backlinks in each of the major search engines
- Your current ranking for the keyword phrase you are going after in each of the major search engines.
- Your current traffic from each of the major search engines.

Then write down what they are after everything.

You can sign up two ways:

1. http://www.digitalpoint.com/tools/ad-network/?s=2197 - This will give us a 10% referral bonus for telling you about it (should they remove the caps)

2. http://www.digitalpoint.com/tools/ad-network/ - This will not give us any referral bonus.

Gift Baskets - Looking for the famous Coop? Join Here

Edited by - ProductivePC on April 04 2005 02:20:25
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VP-ASP Super User

395 Posts

Posted - April 03 2005 :  15:51:25  Show Profile  Visit apswater's Homepage  Reply with Quote
so the answer is no we cant get a look at YOUR stats? You are claiming all these great results... I would like to see the proof because I dont belive you are getting the traffic you claim.

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Starting Member

5 Posts

Posted - April 03 2005 :  15:52:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So how much $$ did you invest in digital point solutions Wayne? Lol.

Zach B
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VP-ASP Super User

304 Posts

Posted - April 03 2005 :  17:19:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Look at Wayne's past posts. He does have a long history of helping people in this forum for nothing in return. There are people on this forum who have poured a lot of effort into answering other cart owner's problems. In about 50%-75% of the cases, not even a "Thank you" is received in return.

In my view, Wayne has been rather open and helpful in his sharing of this info. I am not yet convinced its the way I want to go, so I strongly appreciate the continued discussion from various members on pros and cons of this advertising approach. However, I don't see any benefit in continuing to attack Wayne's intentions or integrity.

Edited by - greatphoto on April 03 2005 17:25:32
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VP-ASP New User

199 Posts

Posted - April 03 2005 :  17:28:24  Show Profile  Visit ProductivePC's Homepage  Reply with Quote

The answer would be no, you cannot have the username and password to our administrative control panel where our stats are. That would not happen. We have a statcounter on their right now. I have no problem with copying and pasting the stats for you if you would like but somehow I still don't think that would be good enough for you.

I have no money invested in DP Solutions... :)

I do however have money invested into World Famous Gift Baskets, which is why I utilize tools like DP to help keep us at the top of the search engines.

If seeing is not believing for you that this SEO tool works phenomenally. Showing you stats are not going to anything for you either.

Fact: You can see how many people a day search for that keyword phrase.

Fact: You can see that we are number 1 in MSN and see our rankings in the other search engines

Fact: You can see that we are involved in the DP network.

Fact: You receive more traffic being at the top of the search engines.

Add 1+1 and you get 2.

You don't have to join APS. Nobody is twisting your arm. I take it however; that you are not up to accepting the challenge put forth to find out for yourself. That will be your absolute best way of finding out if this is fact or not. That is okay is you are not up to it and totally understandable.

Gift Baskets - Looking for the famous Coop? Join Here

Edited by - ProductivePC on April 04 2005 02:21:11
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VP-ASP Super User

395 Posts

Posted - April 03 2005 :  17:55:49  Show Profile  Visit apswater's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I dont need a password. How about I just give you a little code for your heade and it will post a graph here with your traffic.

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Starting Member

35 Posts

Posted - April 03 2005 :  18:54:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm glad to see that you are doing well with your traffic program. However, the program you are invloved with is in direct violation of most, if not all, of the search engines policies for linking.

For example, Yahoo's policies state;

Correspond with webmasters and other content providers and build rich linkages between related pages.
Note: "Link farms" create links between unrelated pages for no reason except to increase page link counts. Using link farms violates Yahoo!'s Site Guidelines and will not improve your page ranking.

What Yahoo! Considers Unwanted
Some, but not all, examples of the more common types of pages that Yahoo! does not want include:

* Pages that harm accuracy, diversity or relevance of search results
* Pages dedicated to directing the user to another page
* Pages that have substantially the same content as other pages
* Sites with numerous, unnecessary virtual hostnames
* Pages in great quantity, automatically generated or of little value
* Pages using methods to artificially inflate search engine ranking
* The use of text that is hidden from the user
* Pages that give the search engine different content than what the end-user sees
* Excessively cross-linking sites to inflate a site's apparent popularity
* Pages built primarily for the search engines
* Misuse of competitor names
* Multiple sites offering the same content
* Pages that use excessive pop-ups, interfering with user navigation
* Pages that seem deceptive, fraudulent or provide a poor user experience

YST's Content Quality Guidelines are designed to ensure that poor-quality pages do not degrade the user experience in any way. As with Yahoo!'s other guidelines, Yahoo! reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to take any and all action it deems appropriate to insure the quality of its index



Items and techniques discouraged by MSN Search

The following items and techniques are not appropriate uses of the index. Use of these items and techniques may affect how your site is ranked within MSN Search and may result in the removal of your site from the MSN Search index.

* Loading pages with irrelevant words in an attempt to increase a page's keyword density. This includes stuffing ALT tags that users are unlikely to view.
* Using hidden text or links. You should use only text and links that are visible to users.
* Using techniques to artificially increase the number of links to your page, such as link farms.


Webmaster Guidelines

Following these guidelines will help Google find, index, and rank your site, which is the best way to ensure you'll be included in Google's results. Even if you choose not to implement any of these suggestions, we strongly encourage you to pay very close attention to the "Quality Guidelines," which outline some of the illicit practices that may lead to a site being removed entirely from the Google index. Once a site has been removed, it will no longer show up in results on Google.com or on any of Google's partner sites.

Quality Guidelines - Basic principles:


* Make pages for users, not for search engines. Don't deceive your users, or present different content to search engines than you display to users.
* Avoid tricks intended to improve search engine rankings. A good rule of thumb is whether you'd feel comfortable explaining what you've done to a website that competes with you. Another useful test is to ask, "Does this help my users? Would I do this if search engines didn't exist?"
* Don't participate in link schemes designed to increase your site's ranking or PageRank. In particular, avoid links to web spammers or "bad neighborhoods" on the web as your own ranking may be affected adversely by those links.
* Don't use unauthorized computer programs to submit pages, check rankings, etc. Such programs consume computing resources and violate our terms of service. Google does not recommend the use of products such as WebPosition Gold™ that send automatic or programmatic queries to Google

If you ask me, you're playing with fire. All it will take is a competetor reporting you to the search engine, and your site will then be banned from the index. After al the hard work you have done, is it really worth taking the chance?


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VP-ASP Super User

395 Posts

Posted - April 03 2005 :  21:26:48  Show Profile  Visit apswater's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Just toss this code in your header page body

<script language="JavaScript">
document.write('<a href="">','<img width=0 height=0 src="',escape(document.referrer),'" border=0></a>')

and we can all see the results here.

If it proves out what you are saying then I am sure you will have a lot of willing participants in your program. Are you up for the challenge? Trust me, I am very interesting in things that actually work and you say "seeing an absorbant amount of traffic coming from other websites". Lets see it.

btw... you still got a robots.txt problem Robots.txt Query Exclusion.


We're sorry, access to http://www.worldfamousgiftbaskets.net has been blocked by the site owner via robots.txt.
Read more about robots.txt
See the site's robots.txt file.
Try another request or click here to search for all pages on worldfamousgiftbaskets.net/
See the FAQs for more info and help, or contact us.

Edited by - apswater on April 03 2005 21:49:09
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VP-ASP Super User

304 Posts

Posted - April 03 2005 :  22:42:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is good discussion. I really appreciate the comments regarding anyone "using methods to artificially inflate search engine ranking" getting banned. I visited the co-op link that Wayne offered and found that there is nothing there intending to artificially inflate search engine rankings. Rather, this co-op is a system for free advertising. If you sign up, you allow advertisements to be placed on your site, and you get to place your adds on other sites. This is controlled by a central server.

Hmmmm....Google can't have any problem with that, can they? After all its just like Google's own mega-money maker: https://www.google.com/adsense/ except that this one is free instead of charging. There are plenty of other ad networks out there that are quite legitimate and quite successful.

That said, unfortunately Google has all the power here. They can do whatever they want regarding your rank, and there's no real recourse for you. Its really hard to prove that they've banned you...as I understand it, they won't admit it to you. They are under no obligation to tell you why you've been banned. If it was unfair, there's little you can do about it. So, while I might say Google can't have an issue with this, I'm sure they choose to and there's nothing we can do about it.

Just some thoughts...

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VP-ASP New User

199 Posts

Posted - April 04 2005 :  00:43:04  Show Profile  Visit ProductivePC's Homepage  Reply with Quote


That is the first intelligent thing I have heard thus far that has not made me think that we are still in highschool. I thank you for your comments. Thank you for providing proof of everything to back up what you say as well.

A lot of times this program gets referred to as a link farm. This is because people do not understand what a link farm is. A lot of people out there do not understand about link exchanging either. A little bit off the subject here but I actually had someone refuse to trade links with me because I had his link posted on a php page. I nicely explained to him that it was not php pages that search engines could not read but session IDs that they choose not to read because they cannot control the manipulation that goes on when using them as well as those links normally do not lead to any good pages since you need a session to start them up.

This tool is not a link farm. It is not intended to be a link farm nor does it have any of the characteristics to remotely resemble a link farm. Everyone knows that link farms are bad juju. Shawn, the creator of this program knows this better than anyone. If you go to www.digitalpoint.com and you look at some of the tools that he has written for SEO's to use. You will see that he knows what he is doing. He has broken no rules by making this program.

Nobody has ever been penalized for offering advertising on their website. That is all that is going on. The difference is, you are entering a TOS with thousands of websites instead of 1. Would it be any different if I paid Linkbrokers to paste my link across thousands of websites or I receive it for free from Digital Point?

One SEO tactic is to buy PR9 and PR8 websites to have their link on their. There are tons of websites that sell advertising in their banner exchange programs. These banners also point to your own website and use an automated source to do so. This is an example of advertising on 1 website. Here, the user is advertising on thousands at the same time.

A lot of people are skittish about this and unsure if anything is going to happen...

All I can do is show the facts and share my experience.
The facts are that Google just had Allegra- For those of you that do not know what Allegra is: [url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLD%2CGGLD%3A2005-13%2CGGLD%3Aen&q=Allegra+google+update]Google Update Allegra[/url].

Google knows about the program. GoogleGuy from Webmaster World has already commented on the program. Google has known about the program since the day that it came out so I was a little skittish myself about going into this. I waited 6 months to see if Google was going to ban these websites that were joining by the hundreds. After one Google update, then this last one... yet, these websites are still going strong. In fact, everyone that has decent weight in DP has number 1 ranking for the keyword phrases that they were going after in a few if not all of the major search engines and their subsidiaries. Hmmmm. So, after 6 months of research on this and talking to everyone I could, I activated my membership. I worked with Howard and Cam on getting this to run on the VPASP cart (they did all the work- Thanks Cam and Howard for all of your help). I then waited and watched to see if I was going to be penalized or banned or something because although I knew what it was, I was still skittish. After a couple of weeks, I became more comfortable with it and started telling people about it and signing people up. Since then every website that I have signed up has hit a number 1 ranking in MSN, Yahoo, or Google even the following brand new website that was supposedly sandboxed:
If you look at the number 1 website, and look at the bottom you will see this person too is part of DP.

It is personally up to the individual. I am not pushing anyone to join however; I am listing my experience and the experience of others so people can make a qaulified decision.

Now, about people reporting this to the search engines. I have to ask you this. :) With as many websites that are in number 1 ranking, do you really think that nobody has tried to report this because of sheer jealousy if nothing else, or at least to knock them out of the first place. I know of a few people in this forum that I am sure have attempted to report it just out of spite to see if we would get banned. This has been around since last August. Link Farms didn't last 2 months before they were shut down because they did break a lot of rules the search engines had. This breaks absolutely no rules. It is not an automated link trading program such as www.autolinktrader.com or www.linkdash.com or the many others out there. This is an advertising program.

Shawn is implementing an option that will allow you to advertise only with websites that are in your same category. This will raise the chance for more targeted traffic and exposure of your website however will diminish your exposure across the coop because your website will only be shown on websites that are in your category and it will lower your weight for your advertising because you are only willing to show websites that are in your category.

Is it for everyone; nope. However, it has worked for us. This is not a replacement for link trading, optimization of your copy, title, and description. This is just another SEO tool that will give you an advantage over your competition.

You make some very valid points Bill. I thank you for them and thank you for having tact when replying to this post.


Thanks for the insight on the robots.txt file. This is one that we found on Webmaster World available for use so we used it. It prevents a lot of the spambots and the other useless bots out there. It does have some faults I am sure.

An alternative to placing code on our website, which I will have to run through corporate and I am sure will not get approved, Statcounter provides the exact same thing as what you have shown for free as well and more. The reason we do not have our stats public is because corporate does not want the competition being able to see our stats or anyone for that matter. Looks like you will either have to take my word for it or I again urge you to try it out for yourself.

I have done the back work for you. Use one of your water websites.... even the one you don't care about anymore. http://www.apswater.com/ which is not found currently for the search term "water".

This term has the following stats along with it:

Searches per day: 17,130

Google: 268,000,000 websites are competing for this
MSN: 152,916,789
Yahoo: 291,000,000

Number 1,2 & 3 Competitors Backlinks & Total Links
1. ga.water.usgs.gov/edu - 592 backlinks & 5,050 total links
2. www.awwa.org - 1,520 backlinks & 51,200 total links
3. www.wef.org - 925 backlinks & 16,400 total links

1. water.usgs.gov/index.html - 0 backlinks
2. www.wef.org - 77,000 backlinks
3. www.wateronline.com - 31,800 backlinks

1. water.usgs.gov - 39,471
2. www.wateronline.com - 5,621
3. www.epa.gov/water - 6,898

I think everyone would agree that those are pretty competitive. Place the word water in your title 1 time and in your description 1 time as well as sparsely throughout your copy.

Also place that JavaScript that you posted above in your header so we can all see how you are doing. For that competitive of a keyword phrase I would say give it a full month before you see first page in MSN.

Since you have control, I am presuming, over what is placed on that website and do not need permission from any type of an executive staff, I would believe this to be fair.

If you are up to it, great, I know you will do fantastic and that is a great way to test it.... A lot more competitive than your other keyword and mine put together. :)

Addon: Totally off the subject here however; I just went to the website and have seen that you are using a meta refresh redirect to go to that to another website. Does this mean you are slowly taking that website down or trying to redirect its traffic to another website. Anyway, if you are attempting to redirect traffic over to the new website, if you put a content=0 and place it in the body of the document you won't break the back button for people. It will be an almost instant redirect and when they click the back button they will not get back to www.apswater.com just to be transferred back to where they didn't want to be, they will get back to the page prior to that. (only tested in IE). IE will not even put www.apswater.com in their history. You will have accomplished the desired effect without upsetting any users because they don't know how to fix the back button. Just a suggestion. I use it on a few of my websites as well. I am unsure whether search engines can read a meta redirect or penalize you for having one on there. I have read many contraversies on that subject. The search engines themselves however say to use a 301 redirect.


hmmmmm. I am not real sure why the vbscript is not working above.... Howard or Cam, you may want to look into that.
Also, guys whenever I post and it is supposed to take you back to your post, I get brought to a page that loops. It says thank you and have a nice day, attempts to transfer me and keeps me on the same page. The only folder up to the left is All Forums.... I then have to click on that and then go back through the process of clicking on customization, etc etc once again to get back to the post
Just letting you know.

[url=http://www.WorldFamousGiftBaskets.net]Gift Baskets[/url] - Looking for the famous Coop? [url=http://www.digitalpoint.com/tools/ad-network/?s=2197]Join Here[/url]

Edited by - ProductivePC on April 04 2005 02:33:23
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VP-ASP Super User

395 Posts

Posted - April 04 2005 :  08:56:01  Show Profile  Visit apswater's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We really dont care about the word water.. it is far too broad. There are easier ways if you just want to flood your site with junk. One we offered a free t-shirt to qualifying people but instead got 60,000 user session a day until I stopped it. What it was is a bunch of people wanting free stuff. Another words worthless traffic that took up the bandwidth. We are very happy with our key words and placement. You are the one making the claims. I had my stats runnign here for a while already. You are the one making claims about you traffic. When I gave you an easy way to prove out what you said you hid. That tell all of us you are making false claims. There is a site that will give us your traffic numbers. I just havent found where I stuck the link at the moment but I will find it and we will see anyway. If you make claims here you are going to get called on it. Many people think this scam... I mean "program" is problematic at best and when Google and Yahoo and MSN see that you all are floding the seach engines this way they will simply change it. Isnt it obvious that 30,000 links to your gift basket site is arificial? I just woner how much weight it ads sine I got a 5/10 rating on yahoo with very little link backs and you got the same with 30,000 link backs.

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VP-ASP New User

199 Posts

Posted - April 04 2005 :  13:35:52  Show Profile  Visit ProductivePC's Homepage  Reply with Quote

I didn't believe you would actually accept... now, at least we know where you stand. Of course you wouldn't accept when it comes to getting an actual competitive keyword phrase, not the ones you actually have but to each his own. Have a good day and good luck in all you do.


The main thing is that people compare this to is a link farm. It is advertising, nothing else. What I am doing here guys is to show you that people have been in this for 9 months and nothing bad has happened to them. I will be back in a month to let you know how I am doing then as well.

To anyone that is interested in it or has questions about it... don't take my word for it, go to http://forums.digitalpoint.com and read what everyone there has to say about this. You will read a lot of contraversial stuff and then make a qualified decision. People in that forum are actually nice and accepting for anything that you have to say, not pessimistic and contraversial no matter what proof is given.

Good Luck To All.

Gift Baskets - Looking for the famous Coop? Join Here
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